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I am not violating NPOV by asking whether an unsourced line in the article is potentially an insinuation that the purported creator of 4chan has initials which are the same as those for child porn at the site, therefore may in some way support that content.

I have removed warnings on WP about "adult content" in external links. Mercurywoodrose talk , 5 August UTC. Seems to be getting overly ironic, all things considered.

Child pornography often appears on 4chan and so does Pedobear. Pedobear is now being sold on T-shirts thoughout the Internet 4chan officially has a policy against child pornography, but any long-time 4chan user can tell you there are times when the 'mods are sleeping,' to use a 4chan phrase.

In CP threads, people boast of being 'in b4 ,' meaning they downloaded the pictures before the thread was deleted. In any case, child pornography threads are rife and can stay up for much more than a moment.

I'm not trying to slander 4chan, but it frustrates me that no news account of 4chan has mentioned Pedobear. It's ubiquitous.

It's one of 4chan's unofficial emblems. It's unsettling. Penneth talk , 5 August UTC. Debate aside, I would like to introduce a sentence in the introductory paragraph that reads: "Pedobear is a popular meme on 4chan.

This argument is a waste of time. We can't add anything like what is being discussed until it is sourced. Shii tock , 11 August UTC.

I posted this source originally; it was deleted. Posted on 4chan right now None are illicit, however the first two are pornographic Japanese comics, one involving an insect.

Open at your own risk. The rest are permutations of Pedobear. I will post screenshots of the thread in question. But as of this writing the link is still active: it contains hard-core Japanese cartoon pornography involving insect impregnation, several pictures of real Japanese women with snakes going up their vaginas, several dead bodies and severed limbs, and at least 18 renditions of Pedobear.

I have already given two links from Wonkette citing Pedobear's existence see above. To be precise, here is what Gpia7r demanded on Aug.

But I did find a thread with over 18 pedobear postings in it. I was told by Gpia7r that this didn't count as evidence because I could've either posted the dozens of images in the thread myself impossible; there is flood control , or otherwise recruited my friends to do so for me.

This debate is like something out of Catch Both of you, stop this nonsense. Pedobear's connection to 4chan isn't sourced, and also isn't common sense, so it's not going to be included.

Done and done. To alleviate the stress on loading the behemoth above. Continue here, please. Know Your Meme isn't a reliable source, as the content is user-created, and it falls under the category of "wiki".

Here's yet another 4chan pedobear thread. Try an undent. Please enlighten me as to how you intend to twist that light-hearted ad for a stuffed animal into pedobear's 'inherent notability' for being a demonic symbol of our society's sexualization of children.

Pedobear is notable because it is a symbol of pedophilia and it is used in criminal child pornography threads on 4chan.

Here's a source tying pedobear in with 4chan. I thought you guys might like this. It's really not worth all this fighting. Wikipedia documents facts that are reported in certain kinds of sources.

We like academic sources, and reputable publications with well-established history of fact-checking.

We end up using a lot of inferior sources, too, but when it's cleanup time in any article, they go. Cleanup time happens whenever someone decides to make it happen.

In an article on a subject with the notoriety of 4chan, you can expect it to happen every day. Sure, there are lots of pedobear threads on 4chan, and there are lots of places on the internet where it's mentioned that pedobear is a 4chan meme.

The intersection between those sources and the sources we try to use here is very, very small. The best place to document Internet memes is ED; you must already know this.

Go make their pedobear article excellent. Yes, the bar is higher for subjects such as this one. That can't be changed by any of us, so we work with reality.

Write about pedobear on ED, and write from high quality, reputable published sources on Wikipedia. Go get a degree in history, write a History of Internet Memes, and then come back and cite it.

Do your homework. Gpia and King. My source meets reliability requirements. The blog is an employer with an editor and staff of professional journalists.

Above I have posted a link to Wikipedia's reliability requirements for a weblog. Read it, and show me where my source is not in conformance.

I am adding a line about pedobear today. I will post it in here first, to avoid a war and to allow input from other users.

I have played by the rules. Sincerely yours, I'd like to let everybody know that I have moved this debate beyond the board.

I have contacted Wikipedia's media desk and I will later be contacting the Wikipedia Administration. My source conforms completely with the rules and it's being denied by a hierarchy.

Thanks, I propose adding the following sentence somewhere in the article exactly where can be determined later : "Pedobear is a 4chan meme that is widely merchandised on the Internet [2] [3] [4].

A cartoon pedophile bear, it was mysteriously pictured with Obama in a column by former Republican presidential candidate Pat Buchanan.

By the way, Gpia - What are your qualifications on this board? Are you an editor? If so, what authority do you have and what do you base that authority on?

Thanks to a helpful Wikipedia user on another board, I have a found an academic paper from Georgia Tech verifying that Pedobear is a 4chan meme.

In some cases it is also used to describe photographic images which skirt the line of being child pornography as well as in ironically contrasting situations, such as a picture of someone with the image on hand posing with To Catch a Predator host Chris Hansen.

I have a professional blog and an academic paper both stating that Pedobear is a 4chan meme. If you like, I will also furnish you with dozens of archived 4chan threads archives, meaning I could not have tampered with them that either contain Pedobear or are dedicated entirely to Pedobear.

As for the paper, it would appear that it was vetted by committee. The following names are listed as advisors on the paper I know that arguing on the Internet is "fun", but it is a dead-end strategy.

Stop wasting time and space talking to him , and go talk to other people. Build consensus among people who haven't already decided that you're wrong, and come back with it, letting it speak for you.

This back-and-forth is pointless. Walk away. Talk to me, not to him. Yell at me if it helps. Yes, I'm addressing both of you.

If you guys are going to generate this much text, it is considered very courteous to insert occasional subheaders. They help prevent edit conflicts, and they help us all keep track of different threads of the conversation.

Please consider using them. I'd like to have some input here, but the format is obnoxious. Precisely what claim needs to be verified here?

Is is that Pedobear originated on 4chan? Is it that Pedobear was popularized on 4chan? Is it that Pedobear is one of the most important things to mention about 4chan lead-paragraph-worthy?

The answers to those three questions are "The source doesn't make that claim", "no problem", and "the source does not make that claim".

Which is it? I have requested mediation on the above subject. I ask that both Kingoomieiii and Penneth go to the link, sign that they agree to have this issue mediated, and let the committee handle this.

I will not as of now agree to mediation when I have so clearly demonstrated my case. Mediation is not, at this point, necessary. Is 4chan a play on the word 'fortune'?

If true, this should probably be mentioned somewhere in the heading. There are actually a number of "chans," which were originally and primarily are Japanese anime forums, such as 7chan, 2chan, etc.

I suspect that the use of the number 4 may have been a jab at the Japanese--since 4chan is an American site--as they consider 4 to be extremely unlucky, referring to it as "the death number.

I believe that the memes section should be removed from the article. It is hardly relevant to 4chan and it only lists two examples, hardly a comprehensive list of 4chan memes.

Maybe it could be put into List of popular internet memes? Should these two be added? I don't think it's worth documenting but here's news sources.

A lot of this thread seems to be focused more on the group anonymous rather than the actual image board 4chan.

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. Mercurywoodrose talk , 5 August UTC PS I have added an explanation about the Pedobear meme to the article backed up be reliable sources in the form of literature.

It's just too controversial. My point is quite simple: i think we need to keep this article clean of inferences that 4chan in any way promotes or tolerates the distribution or positive discussion of child porn, unless there are sourced references to any of this kind of discussion.

Wikipedia is not censored. That extends to more than just profanity. The 'rampant silliness' you're talking about is only reached once a user gets past the quickly-closed CP threads and the blatant racism- but this doesn't mean they can't be in the article.

If you read an article about a city, and that article omitted crime statistics to avoid giving readers the 'wrong idea', how would you feel about that after you got mugged?

It is not, and if you were asked to provide actual hard statistics on the ratio of "CP to everything else", you couldn't do it. So, I ask, what are these lines about "CP" truly based on?

Does it deserve to be mentioned? Absolutely, we know it happens on very rare occasions, but that doesn't deserve an essay on the subject. It's easy to compare this to the Michael Richards Laugh Factory incident It's shameful to come across such a violation of NPOV.

There's a fine line to be drawn on the subject. Also, avoid using such terms as "pedobear is the most popular meme", such things cannot be proven and are ridiculous.

But does it even need to be mentioned? CP is just an acronym for child porn. It's used outside of 4chan. It's hard to cite something that doesn't exist, and is merely based on hearsay and in-passing Yes, we know the occasional child pornography exists on 4chan in rare occasions I'd note at least in the article that 'CP' is taken with a silly tone, a kind of "everyone wants it, no one can post it" vibe, leading to threads like "POST CP" - followed by people posting pictures of Captain Picard, or Cargo Pants, things with the initials CP.

I haven't found a source for that yet. It's used across much of the Internet. Whether or not child pornography is notable to 4chan is another matter.

Penneth talk , 5 August UTC As we said above, it's unlikely reliable sources would want to write about a pedophilic bear.

Can you imagine seeing a dad out with his kids wearing a Pedobear t-shirt? I could make a picture of a dog and call it "rapedog", but it means nothing.

If you have a personal vendetta against 4chan, so be it. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't let it influence your perception of fact.

A true, filthy pedophile will go to much worse places to do his or her deed. Why not mention 7chan, then? Apparently that's known to be hardly moderated at all, and a "breeding ground for CP" Because 4chan is more popular.

Pedobear is a symbol of pedophilia on 4chan. It is posted with actual child porn. I have already stated that I have no vendetta against 4chan.

I'm just sayin', there's far more to it than lolcats and rickrolling. It's bursting with hard-core gore, pornography, some of it kiddie, and much else that is sordid.

Also, I googled pedobear t-shirts and got 25, results. Google is not a meter of how popular something is.

The joke is the mere aspect of CP, and the humor around it captain picard, colored pencils, etc Sure, there are occasions when it does Oftentimes it's a single person in a single thread posting his shameful "cp folder" while others comment wildly about it.

If one person wants to run and capitalize on the internet joke because there's a following of 4chan users Not following of pedophiles, don't mistake that , then more power to them.

Currently we "sort of" still live in a capitalist society, so there's nothing wrong with that. You're wrong. The pedobear cartoon is often posted alongside child pornography.

Just to repeat that: you're wrong and the pedobear cartoon is often posted alongside child pornography. We definitely do live in a capitalist society.

It is in the process of commodifying children for sex. If you can somehow prove from a "random" message board that "pedobear" is posted more often in the unbelievably rare "cp" threads than it is elsewhere, I will gladly bow out of this debate.

I rarely see CP. Your argument has shifted. Before you said that Pedobear is purely an ironic, jocular symbol. Now you're admitting that it is posted in CP threads, but that the number of times it is used jokingly far outweighs the number of times it accompanies kiddie porn.

For my part, I have never claimed that Pedobear is posted the majority of time in kiddie porn threads. I've simply said that it is often posted in such threads.

I believe I have won this debate because you have come around to admitting my central claim: that Pedobear is indeed posted in CP threads on 4chan.

As soon as you have discovered an algorithm that can track the thousands of threads on 4chan and the quantity and nature of pedobear postings, I don't believe your above request for proof is feasible.

This debate about Pedobear doesn't even touch on the fact that 4chan is extremely racist, that it is a place for posting random people's phone numbers so that they can be harassed, etc.

Should every one of them be mentioned as well? Certainly, under your logic, they should. There is no sense in calling attention to a single "meme" simply because of it's name.

You should also mention the "Success kid" and "Chris Hansen" meme, as well, since they both have a link to child pornography.

Why not "Socially awkward penguin" and various "Pokedads"? I've seen some of those with CP humor in them.

Why not "Boxxy", "Courage Wolf", etc? I could go on and on. If you want to mention Pedobear and make the false comment that it is " one of the most popular meme s ", you damn well better come up with some reliable and solid sources, of which you've failed to do.

You'd be better off making a blog and spreading your propaganda there. CP exists. Pedobear exists. Neither exist because of the other. Which came first, do you know?

Pedobear could have been created as a concept, an idea Re: Racism - What does that have to do with this topic?

Are you reaching for more ammo to try and back up your arguement? Strawman does NOT work here. Ever read the intro to it? The part where only an idiot would take anything posted there as fact?

I've said that it's posted in CP threads. Amazingly, you have admitted this and you're still arguing. Yes, there are hundreds of memes, but pedobear was invented on 4chan and it is being widely merchandised ; every attempt I've made to mention it on Wikipedia has been censored.

Pedobear is the most germane to those threads. It's a hard-core place, and the Wikipedia article doesn't reflect that. You have already admitted that pedobear is posted in CP threads, so I don't know what we're discussing.

Funnily enough, just for stating the facts about Pedobear and providing a citation, I have been threatened with a ban by someone named the King.

It is not my job to police the Internet, but neither is it your job to police Wikipedia. For now, I will not repost any mention of Pedobear in the article, for it would be futile, but I would like it to be noted by Wikipedia users that I have been censored.

It is linked to by www. You continue to try and pass off falsehoods as facts. This is your opinion, and it cannot be cited as fact.

If the article doesn't have a piece of "hard-core" feel to it, you aren't obligated to seek out random bits of information that aren't true.

Pedobear is posted in CP threads less than it's posted in any other thread, that's the point. I don't get paid for that job, but I'd like for people to not be misinformed.

Yep, your non-facts sure are being censored, as they should be. Here you go. Out of hundreds of millions of websites on the Internet, pedobear.

It's linked to by boyloverlinks. You have conceded that it's posted in 4chan's CP threads. So what are we debating?

And where is the 'joke' when a drooling or panting pedobear is posted in a thread with actual child pornography? Thank you for admitting that pedobear is occasionally posted in such CP threads.

Thanks also for admitting that I'm being censored. You have still not shown where I was misinformed or false, but you have happily and brashly demonstrated that you are a censor.

You said: "Pedobear is posted in CP threads less than it's posted in any other thread, that's the point. There are lots of popular memes on 4chan.

I would venture to guess that some are posted far more than Pedobear. And just as a meme about a cartoon dog would be linked to by a dog-lover website, Pedobear probably attracts some less-than-reputable fans.

MOST of the time that it is posted, it is not in a "CP" thread, or causing 4chan to in your words "basically mainstream internet pedophilia. Then, your comment: " You're claiming it has reached such a popularity that it is an "unofficial emblem" of a random message board is silly!

I'll play your game: Pedobear - k results on Google. Boxxy - 1. Courage Dog - 1. Any "results" you provide are flawed, as much as mine will be using your methods.

Why would the news report on something they can't prove? Damn, got me there, they do it every day You're jumping to so many conclusions.

And no, I have no solid proof, it's impossible to prove. More of a common sense thing that any visitor of 4chan would come up with. Your comments also lead me to believe you've never even visitted 4chan.

Do you even know what Pedobear is based off of? It's real, and of course, it's Japanese. I don't have the info on me, and I'm not going to take a chance on 4chan while I'm at work, but it's not something a user just drew up one day.

It has a backstory, and if one person threw out the name "pedobear" We're supposed to trust the "common sense thing" of a 4chan user. For the record, I've visited 4chan many times, notwithstanding your belief that I haven't.

A drooling pedobear? I said Pedobear is an unofficial emblem because it appears in one of 4chan's official banner ads. If I was mistaken about the meaning of in b4 , I apologize.

The fact remains that people on 4chan boast of getting to the CP before it's deleted. To reiterate, you've conceded pedobear is posted with actual child pornography on 4chan.

Is that worth noting on Wikipedia? Finally, I think it's fair to say 4chan is helping mainstream internet pedophilia when pedobear is printed on t-shirts at a factory and apparently sold to interested boy lovers.

Seeing where it is and where it isn't. Seeing it is the only proof anyone has, and if you truly think I'm wrong, then please help me out.

Rather than rehash what I say three times now and consider the arguement over, please prove what I say is wrong? Pedobear is posted more often in non-CP threads than in CP threads - I am willing to stand by that as a fact, but I cannot provide proof because it's impossible to do in writing, and a "random" board is impossible to cite.

Again, show me where I'm wrong. Also, congrats for showng 2 out of 2 billion renditions of a single image.

I could photoshop a picture of a US Senator having relations with a dog As much as one person's rendition of a single image, as you so kindly linked to.

Site rankings are meaningless, and I responded with two examples of where they don't apply, so yes, I did respond. Again, it appears on a banner - Along with tons of other memes.

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